The Boardroom Path

[00:00:03] Ralph Grayson: Welcome to The Boardroom Path by Sainty Hird & Partners. I'm your host, Ralph Grayson, a partner in the board practice. In this series, we'll offer practical steps and useful perspectives for aspiring and newly appointed NEDs. Throughout its 30 year history, Sainty Hird has recruited senior board members across the City, Industry, the Public Sector and NGOs.

We're now also evaluating those boards, as well as coaching and mentoring those seeking to transition from an executive career into the boardroom. So we'll be speaking to some leading figures in the board advisory and NED world. Specifically, we'll seek their counsel about how and where to spend time and energy to make an effective transition into the boardroom.

The goal is to equip recent and aspiring NEDs with tips, tactics and strategies to be most effective and build a successful career as a board director. In the process, we aim to help you to think more about who you are, how you operate and how you can make this work in the boardroom.

My guest today is Sarah Pierman, who is the CEO of Dynamic Boards. She became a NED age 29 and realised it's not easy to get free access to board vacancies, and that the lack of access is hampering UK boards from becoming more dynamic. So Sarah started a simple data-led advertising platform to introduce people to board roles they might not hear about otherwise.

In 2020, Sarah launched DynamicBoards.co.uk to shake up the NED vacancy advertising market and to make it easy and free for people to find and apply for NED roles. Dynamic Boards advertises over 1500 NED roles a year from across the UK. They welcome everyone and have helped many people with classically underrepresented perspectives to gain board roles. Sarah began her career meeting and evaluating over 250 mid-market businesses to assess whether RBS and Praesidian Capital should invest. Since then, she has worked in multiple startups, both as a consultant, advisor, and a founder. Alongside this, Sarah has worked as a non-executive director on the board of a specialist bank, a home care franchise business, and a banking software provider. Sarah has experience on audit and risk committees as chair of a remuneration and nominations committee, and as vice chair and senior independent director.

Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:02:55] Sarah Pierman: Thanks for having me, Ralph.

[00:02:57] Ralph Grayson: Tell us a little bit more about your own background. Give us a bit more of your fascinating backstory and the career journey that led you to create Dynamic Boards.

[00:03:05] Sarah Pierman: Well, I did a maths degree at Oxford and then went straight into the city. I worked at RBS, in the frontline of banking, lending money to businesses. So we'd evaluate the sort of, financial side of the business, also the market that they're in and the people in the business and work out whether they were a good opportunity for the bank or not.

And I'd say it was a fantastic place to learn and a really good foundation, for commercial understanding of how you make organisations grow, and where they fail at times as well. I ended up getting to director level in RBS's SME Lending Team at 25, and I think sort of relevant to the conversation about NEDs, probably the thing that really helped me with is it got me experience with the private equity partners and CEOs of businesses.

So it really helped my comfort and confidence at operating at what ultimately is board level. I ended up joining the board of a charity, when I was 26, and whenever I left full-time finance work, I got involved, in a couple of different startups, as you said. And then, a headhunter that I'd known for several years who'd approached me about a different role, and I'd said no while I was at RBS, but I'd kept in touch and they knew what I was up to, and they said, would you be interested in joining the board of this specialist bank? And I just thought that was a fantastic opportunity. Went through an interview process and got that role. That really was a turning point for me. I've always been interested in non-exec work, but, haven't probably expected to do a role like that at 29.

I've thoroughly enjoyed it, but it also threw me into the NED world, and I found that the NED world was full of sharks and scam websites that were charging, anything from £150 to £2000 for people to just be able to view board roles. There was lots of exclusive access sites, where you needed to know someone to get invited, and there was generally that sort of stuffy unwelcoming environment around the NED landscape and I felt that there were too many boards who were missing out on getting the talent that they could have and ending up with their accountant's mate or their friend's dad, all sorts of things like that. They're missing out on the brightest and the best talent ending up on UK boards, and nepotism on boards needs to end, and that's where the dawning moment for Dynamic Boards came from.

[00:05:15] Ralph Grayson: For people of a certain generation, I'm thinking of certain Steve Wright radio jockey who would talk about Mr. Angry. I think we have Mrs. Angry of the Boardroom with us today. Let's drill into that. I've heard you talk about the NED marketplace as broken.

So talk to me about what your vision was of how Dynamic Boards could mend this broken NED marketplace.

[00:05:38] Sarah Pierman: So it's really pretty simple. We wanted to make UK boards the most dynamic in the world. That was the big, grandiose statement. But the simple reality was we wanted to get the people who aren't ending up on boards, who would be great on boards, to hear about the roles and to help organisations find them.

There were just too many people that had been put off by all these other sites and exclusive access clubs and things. Now we wanted to put them on boards.

[00:06:00] Ralph Grayson: Fascinating so much to drill into here. So look, there's a lot of other platforms out there, and as you imply some are more professional than others. I think some have a clear vision and purpose, and it's clear to me that Dynamic Boards has a very clear vision and purpose. But how would you describe Dynamic Boards as different from other platforms?

It's a hybrid model and marketplace. Let's just drill into what the model is and the proposition a bit more.

[00:06:26] Sarah Pierman: Yeah, so it is a marketplace. You're right, we've got two sides. So we've got candidates, that can sign up for free. They just fill in a form and give us quite a lot of data about themselves, and then we've got organisations that come to us and say, we are looking for, and they can be quite precise in what they're looking for. And we will mine our database and say, okay, we have 372 people who meet that brief. Would you like us to send an email to them and encourage them to apply for your role? So we do incredibly targeted advertising. We are an advertising platform. We are not a search firm. That means we don't receive any applications. We never have, never will. So either organisations come to us directly or they come alongside a search firm, and probably about half our business at the moment is coming through search firms and we work with lots of search firms on repeat business, which is great as well. So we are helping them find an additional talent pool.

When we work directly with an organisation, that means the organisation has to do the filtering themselves, and that means they get control, but it also obviously adds a burden to them. So there'll be a mixture ofwhat sort of organisation suits which of our two models of working.

In general, when I look at the market, I would say there's kind of four categories, I like to put us in a totally separate category, the search firms, there's the dodgy scam websites, then there's the generic advertising platforms like LinkedIn, Guardian, and then we fall, we are not a search firm, we're an advertising platform, but we are niche, so we're not like LinkedIn and Guardian in that we are all about NED roles, chair roles, trustee roles. So for our candidates, we've got all the roles. So that's what we like to pride ourselves on. We're a bit of a one-stop shop for them. If an NED role is listed anywhere, then we like to think we will have it on our site. So we've advertised over 6,000 roles since we launched five years ago.

As you said, Ralph, thank you, we're free. We make a big point that all are welcome. So no matter what back background you're from, you are very welcome with us. And then for companies, I guess our real focus is around this highly curated, targeted, email advertising. So getting their role in front of the people who will make their board more dynamic. Yes, we've got a really great mix of candidates in our database. But actually, having that great mix doesn't mean not experienced. 72% of our candidates do have prior board experience of some sort. We are very focused on being UK wide. I know a lot of search firms are based in London, and we want to make a point that we are totally covering the whole of the UK.

We can be a cheaper option if people want to use us and run the process in-house, or like I said, they can use us alongside search, and so we take a very relational approach. We support organisations with things like looking at, you know, if they come to us with an advert and they've got loads of, the standard jargon in there, we will pick that apart and say, look, let's say it like it is - what are you looking for?

Help them tease that out, and the sort of cherry on top, that we discovered was a game changer for organisations is we do video interviews. So alongside that sort of targeted email approach, we record a video and it'll be with one or two of the board members. It might be the chair and another NED, could be the chief exec, and we will just have a chat with them over Zoom and find out what the organisation's about and what they're looking for. And we will post that video, alongside the advert on our website, on LinkedIn, in that targeted email. And when people see a video and they hear about an organisation, they get so much more excited by it. That really brings roles to life and improves and the engagement that people feel in the process.

[00:09:43] Ralph Grayson: I think that's brilliant. I've never heard anybody doing that before. I think it's a really interesting and innovative way of boards marketing themselves. Particularly, I'd be interested, just to get your thoughts on boardroom fit. Everybody talks about the skills matrix that you have on a board. A lot of this is for the benefit of new and aspiring NEDs who perhaps don't know what they solve for. Also don't really understand the importance of boardroom behavior yet. But also don't understand really why a board would want them. The old show don't tell. It's not just about repeating your executive career.

So how do you fit in a world where headhunters aren't paid to give free advice to new and aspiring NEDs, as I know to my peril. But to the same extent quite often, particularly with earlier stage companies, they may not know really what they're trying to solve for. How do you try and span that gap?

[00:10:38] Sarah Pierman: So I'd say I do have the same problem as you have lots of people email me and say, I want to become a NED. Can I have a coffee with you? I think clearly I cannot have a coffee...

[00:10:46] Ralph Grayson: and all those coffees mount up.

[00:10:47] Sarah Pierman: with all of the people that are interested in becoming NEDs in the UK.

So yes, we have looked at, okay, how do we create something that enables the masses to learn about the role of a non-exec? And like you said, the importance of culture and fit and other aspects of being on the board as well. So what we developed is a Future NED stream of our work. So every month, I run a session that provides an introduction to becoming a non-exec director and a chance for Q&A and that has become the sort of gateway introduction for a lot of people joining Dynamic Boards. For a long time, we've produced an awful lot of video content with great speakers like Patrick Dune, who I know you've had recently on this podcast, and that provides a lot of insight into what being on a board's about. He did one with us on the difference between executive, non-executive, how do you sort of stay the right side of that line? There's loads of insights there. But we have found that often people want a really straight up conversation about, what the role of an NED is, what they do, what the liability is, getting through some of that key information so they can work out if this is for them.

And I do feel like one of the healthiest things in a market is for people to be able to dip their toe in and decide it is or isn't for them and we really hope that we facilitate that. We facilitate that first toe dip. Where they just find out enough to decide whether they're going to commit more time and energy into applying. As many of you'll find out, applying for NED roles does take a lot of time, and as you've said, Ralph, you don't just copy and paste your exec CV and hope for the best.

It does need some curation and does need a lot of thought.

[00:12:13] Ralph Grayson: And I'm still yet to meet anybody who's actually been told you are really not cut out to be a NED. This isn't for you, and some people just aren't born to be board members, right.

[00:12:25] Sarah Pierman: Yes, and we all know it from wherever you've worked, there are some people that are better at standing back, seeing the bigger picture, understanding the strategic dynamics of what's at play, and other people that do get right into the detail. As a NED, you are going to be able to, have to be able, to stand back.

That's a key element of the role, and that is not for everyone. So it is really important to realise whether this is something that you would enjoy and whether you'd actually be good at it.

[00:12:51] Ralph Grayson: Yeah, indeed.

The idea of this podcast, as much as giving anybody signposts in where they want to be as a NED, and why they should be a NED, we also want to raise the level of debate around good governance and you've spoken very eloquently in the past about a vision to make UK boards the most dynamic in the world and that the UK economy would be faster growing if the role was more enticing. Could you just elaborate on some of that? Because I think it raises some really important themes.

[00:13:21] Sarah Pierman: Yeah, and I'm not perfectly eloquent, I'm sure I won't get this quite right. But maybe for a moment, just forget about boards. If you were going to try and grow sales in a business and you had to find a bunch of people to sit round the table, to work out that strategy and support you as you grow. Who would you pick?

There's a blank piece of paper. You probably think about who your buyers are, you definitely have some people around the table who get your buyers. People who know what the competition's like, what else is going on that there. Someone who gets AI and how it is innovating in sales, whether that's personalisation and enhancement of customer experience, competitive intel, improved forecasting, prediction. Someone who gets operations in the supply chain. You'd of course have someone who understands cash flow and how to survive and build a sustainable business while growing. You might have someone who's built and scaled a business of a similar size before. Someone who understands people dynamics and organisational culture. Who gets the employee base and how to bring your team with you as you scale.

You'd think about bringing in some of the team who are involved in the business day to day, not just people from outside, and that is just a starter. So whenever I think about that with a blank piece of paper. I imagine a room that is quite exciting to look at. It's a really interesting, different bunch of people and it's quite sparky.

It'd naturally be people who have different life experiences. There'd probably be a mix of age groups and backgrounds there, and if you did the same thing two years later, you'd have a slightly different bunch of people in the room because the market's always changing and the demands and needs of the business would be changing.

Yet our boards, I would say, have not dramatically changed for the last 20, maybe longer years. I would question, how often do you see a board appointment and feel surprised, impressed or hopeful, and I would say we've seen a huge improvement of the mix of genderrepresentation at FTSE level and some improvement elsewhere too. We've seen an improvement in the mix of ethnic representation at FTSE level and some improvement elsewhere too.

But the independent voices challenging and cheering on boards aren't much changed. Too often we're seeing the people of the same age, the average age of a NED is 64ish. Same educational background. Same sort of professional background. So similar sort of professional sausage factory training, I'd say. People who will look safe on a corporate website. Sometimes looking like trophy assets. I think too many boards are still going to the closest key individuals when the board appoints. They're not really going out to market and trying to find these true, independent voices and I just think that there is a huge opportunity here.

When you think about that blank piece of paper to get a much, much better mix of people involved and a much better mix of skill sets. So this isn't about ticking boxes at all, it's about thinking about how do we create that? What is a very creative mix of people around the table to help a business thrive and I just imagine all the different businesses that we have around the UK, having that blank piece of paper and having that better mix. What would it do to our growth? I cannot imagine it would not have a transformative effect on our economy. One of the most eloquent explanations of this is actually from a book called Rebel Ideas by Matthew Syde. He's far more eloquent than me. But one of the examples he gives is he talks about Gareth Southgate's,FA Technical Advisory Board, and he created a really eclectic mix of people on that board, included a cycling coach, a college commander at Sandhurst, an Olympic rower, tech entrepreneur, a rugby coach, and at first whenever he did that, the football insiders were absolutely horrified. They said they, these are not footballing men. You know, how are they going to advise? This is far too important for the England team. But Gareth Southgate himself said I like listening to people who know things that I don't. That's how we learn. And he brought together this really, mixed group of people, and I guess the word diversity has been taken and most people assume that you mean gender or ethnicity when you mention it, but he sort of recaptures that word and says, look, if you build this truly diverse and divergent group of people around a table, you can achieve so much.

[00:17:22] Ralph Grayson: Fascinating. I've heard you refer to NED's being like Christmas tree decorations,Let's just explore that a little bit.

[00:17:29] Sarah Pierman: It's pretty brutal, isn't it? I'd say in general, NEDs aren't in the press all that much. But that quote is actually from Tiny Rowland, the ex owner of Harrods. Who he describes, NEDs as like the decorations of a Christmas tree, and I guess that implies that NED's are present just for appearance's sake. They're fulfilling a formal requirement rather than being actively involved in strategic decision making or oversight.

I mean, NED should not be Christmas tree decorations. They shouldn't be, and I guess probably the reality today is website decorations. They just make your website look good and they're just there as that sort of trophy asset, What an individual would see in the impression they'd get of an organisation. That should not be the case.

NEDs should be taking a very active role in creating good governance in an organisation, and I'd say one of the things I realised when I started Dynamic Boards is we were helping lots of people join boards. When they got there, they were a bit lonely. Boards don't meet that often. Compared to when you're working in a team day to day, you don't get that much time with these individuals. Your impact is actually judged in quite a short time window. But also the amount of time you have to learn, you know, people say it can take about a year to settle into an NED role, and that's because you might only have six, eight meetings in that year, opportunities to get to know the business, the other board members, that kind of thing. But also the governance, the way governance works in that particular organisation, suss out the impact you can have, where the gap is on the board. There's an awful lot to suss out, and I realised that NEDs needed support through that process.

So we started a NED community two years ago and that's where people can sort of come together and do an awful lot of peer to peer learning. We don't just want to see people be NEDs, we want to see them be thoughtful, effective, empowered NEDs, that are confident enough to challenge poor governance and are striving towards doing the role to the best of their abilities.

[00:19:17] Ralph Grayson: Sarah's starting to bash the table, so I think we better move on. That so accords as well with something that I think Graham Duggan talked about on an earlier podcast of when he chaired a certain search firm, which won't be mentioned. He was asked, could you recommend a couple of NEDs for a board? And he said, well, sure you're doing a proper search. And they said, no, it's only the NEDs. I mean, you must know, couple of mates that you've been shooting with and it kind of sums up that attitude, right? I mean, God.

I'd love to come just back for a second. You referenced scale up there a few times and there's been a lot of stuff in the press about the absence of scale up capital in this country and the productivity gap and it does make me think about the importance of talent, and advice to that talent, advice to founders, particularly at the scale up part of the economy. As a banker, and somebody who lent to growth companies, when you looked at the balance sheet and you looked at the P&L and you looked is this investible?

What, as a banker, did you look at in terms of the founder DNA or what advice they had around them? How might that change the investability, is that a word, of a company?

[00:20:23] Sarah Pierman: I mean it mattered hugely. Probably one of the first things you would look at. Who is this management team? I'd say, I didn't look at very early stage businesses. They're a bit more established at that point. But it was absolutely key. The bank will not lend a huge amount of money to an organisation unless they feel confident that the leadership is sticking around and they're going to do a good job.

So some of that you're going to be judging by credentials and what they've done previously and their competence and skills. But actually heck of a lot of it is you meet individuals, you have a conversation with them, you look at the whites of their eye, and you suss out whether you think they have the right commitment and desires for the organisation.

So I'd say actually, when you're appraising businesses, probably appraising management teams is one of the areas that I would say requires higher EQ, as does NED work. Sussing out where that management team is at. I'd say the difference is when you're a NED you're not there just to judge. You're there to cheer on, to challenge, to support, but also hold to account. So actually, it's a far more interesting role as well.

[00:21:21] Ralph Grayson: That's a really interesting point. Which brings me onto, when I talk to a lot of founders, they see a board at best is a necessary evil, and at worst, just a complete pain in the blank.

What would you say to people who are thinking about. Hiring their first NEDs. Having their first board.

What are the positives? Why should they be recruiting new people to give them advice? What should NEDs, aspiring NEDs, think about their first board role?

[00:21:50] Sarah Pierman: I would say if you're in the fortunate position that you are choosing to add NEDs, you are not forced to by a regulator, then you actually have an awful lot of opportunity to shape the role and to decide what you need and want from these external independent voices. That's where it's really important to spend quite a lot of time scoping that out.

One side of that is scoping out what sort of rhythm of governance are you looking for? So are you looking for monthly board meetings, quarterly board meetings? Do you want just quick calls regularly? How do you want to check in with these people? How do you want to get them involved in the business? Because one thing that you can do, and I did on an earlier startup, is create an overly burdensome governance framework for an early stage organisation that is not helpful. There should be a bit of dynamism in how it works, but at the same time, a little bit of structure and discipline really helps.

On the flip side, I'd say there's a creativity in this. So you want to think about the skills, the experiences that you're looking for, and list them all out and kind of work out what would your dream sort of individual be to join this board? Once you've scoped that out, pull it out into an advert, put it out there. You can share it on Dynamic Boards but also share it elsewhere. See who comes forwards and you might well be surprised at the type of the individuals that you could attract. Particularly, obviously if your business is quite a compelling one, that depends. But, you know, some startups, offer shares in the company as a way of enticing NEDs when they don't have the funds to be able to pay for them and that can help you attract obviously, a high caliber of individuals than when you're asking for it on a voluntary basis.

The other thing to bear in mind is there are lots of different ways of structuring this. So it could be that you want non-executive directors. You want directors. That is, they're listed on companies house as directors. But it could also be that you say, what we really need is board advisors. We don't need to add another director. No one's making us do that. It's overly complex. We don't want to give away voting rights. But we want to bring in advisors at this stage. But we want to formalise it, so that we do have board meetings. So that we show, when we go for our next stage of investment or whatever, we show that we are ready for that sort of next level governance and that we've got good checks and balances in place.

So then you could create an advisory board and have benefit from that slightly more informal structure where the key decisions are still made by directors, and it's really important that you distinguish that, so you don't end up in a situation where people are considered shadow directors. Which is quite dangerous for an individual because they'd have the liability of directors, but not the voting rights.

Basically there's loads of different ways of structuring it and work out what ways best for you as an individual. For those early stage founders, I think the big win is getting skills and experience that you do not have in your founding team. So if your founding team, for example, is really strong on marketing and really strong on tech, but you actually don't have anyone on the founding team who's really strong on finance, say, then you might say, look, whenever we make this advisory board or this board, however you're going to structure it, you bring in the skills that you don't have around that core founding team.

You might have those skills in the organisation, but you want a next level to be able to sort of hold you to account, to ask questions around that area that has confidence and competence to do it. So you can bring that in. I'd say the big benefit is always independence. So people that are not involved in the business day-to-day can see things clearly, can hold you to account of things that you said you were going to do, can help you see what else is going on in the market, ask you the helpful questions.

I think often founders end up with, sort of lots of different contact points, lots of different people that they're talking to. There's something about putting a bit of structure around it that can really help professionalise the company and help them grow.

For individuals joining the board of Early Stage Startups, for a lot of people that is their dream kind of role because, where you do have organisations with huge regulatory requirements that are very strong on governance, which can be great to learn from, but it can mean that a lot of board meetings are governance heavy.

So the proportion of time that you get to talk about strategy is less. Whereas when you join the board of an early stage startup, you will get to have a lot more conversation around the strategic direction of the organisation, where it's going, how they are building it. For a lot of people that's an incredibly exciting area to be working in. Finding the roles is probably trickier, because they don't tend to advertise so well. But I think there's huge opportunity there.

I think if you're someone that has a good understanding of sort of how you form good governance frameworks and support people in a regular and structured kind of way, then you can help bring that to an early stage business, cause often they don't have that themselves and you can help form that board. You know, they're often needing chairs of the board as well, so it can be a good opportunity to get a chair role too. I think they're a great marketplace and we would love to help advertise more of those kind of roles as well.

[00:26:24] Ralph Grayson: Some great content there. So where else do people find content and thought leadership? How do you help train, develop people, think about some of these issues around governance and some of these issues around fit of should you be on a PLC board? Should you be on a startup board? Should you be a trustee of a charity?

Is there anywhere they go on your website or is that part of the education process and development process that you give people?

[00:26:48] Sarah Pierman: Yeah, it's an important thing to work out. Naturally, your experience to date will impact the type of organisation that you can join the board of. So PLCs, as you would imagine, are highly regulated and that means they're following the UK corporate governance code and their boards have a strong emphasis on compliance. You know, shareholder engagement, public accountability, that means that the board has a huge amount of scrutiny from the media, from investors and from regulators. So those sort of board roles are not for everyone, and I'd say they're sort of at the top of the NED ladder. They tend to be the best paid roles, but they also have a huge governance and public profile kind of requirement.

You must know your stuff on governance to get a role like that, and most people don't find they walk into one of those roles if they've never had any board experience unless they've just exited probably a similar kind of business in their professional capacity and have very transferrable skills there.

I'd say the time commitment for PLC roles is generally very clearly stipulated. When you're going through that process, you sort of understand the cadence of board meetings and things like that. I'd say on the contrast, private company boards can be the wild west, so they could be founder led, family owned, p backed. Depends on the market, but there's generally a lot less regulation. You can get involved in a far more hands-on kind of advisory way a lot of the time. You tend to be less governance heavy, more entrepreneurial. A lot more time for strategic conversations, generally. But I'd say the time commitment varies massively and often it would be hard to work out exactly how much time that role is going to take out until you're in it.

You mentioned trustee roles, charity roles. So the Charity Commission oversees them. Obviously, there are a lot more about impact than about profit. Again, I'd say there's a huge variety. Some of the larger charities would be very well governed and structured. Smaller charities might start to call on trustees to do more and more than just the standard trustee role. So it can be important to kind of suss that out before you join. An example would be like a treasury role where you realise there's actually limited financial staff in the business. So you're going to be pulled into more and more matters that you might not consider to be trustee level. So worth sussing out kind of where the organisation's at, the scale of it, what the governance structures are, and where you would fit into that.

I've done a trustee role and I think it's a phenomenally valuable experience. I always say don't do it as a springboard to get to something else. Do it because you believe in the organisation, you believe in them having good governance, and you want to be part of that, and you've got the time capacity to do it well.

You did mention it, but other regulatory sectors like housing associations, NHS Trusts, a lot of them have strong governance requirements as well. They generally have quite clear time commitments at the outset, which is quite helpful for first time NEDs or people that are considering this alongside full-time roles and I think those are great experiences as well.

I think in all instances, one of the key things to be aware of is when the go gets tough, you are going to have to get more involved as an NED and that will involve more time, and if you are doing this alongside other things, and too many other things, you will struggle. So you do need to allow capacity in your portfolio of life, of career, to make sure that you are able to commit when the board needs you.

[00:30:02] Ralph Grayson: Good advice. I think this all comes to the importance of an individual's board value proposition. So I always say to people thinking about an earlier stage board, unless you are happy to take a call from a founder in the middle of your dinner party on Saturday night or Sunday night when you're putting the kids to bath or bed, whatever it may be.

When the founder says, I've just worked out I can't meet payroll tomorrow. What am I going to do about it? If you are not ready for that helter skelter, then an earlier stage board probably isn't for you. Similarly, on a charity board, unless you very clearly empathise with the mission and the purpose of that charity or housing association, social impact, whatever it may be. Then that's probably not the right board for you and exactly to your point, Sarah, don't think it's just a stepping stone to getting a paid role or a bigger, or a better role, however that is defined. So Sarah, how should aspiring NEDs think about their value proposition?

[00:31:03] Sarah Pierman: There's a couple of different elements to this. One of the key ones is demonstrating board readiness. You want to be able to evidence that you are comfortable with top level decision making and that you'll hold your own, and speak up in a room of senior people. You want evidence that you've got integrity and wisdom. You know, governance is so vital to organisations. So you'll be involved in the most challenging conversations like, should we change the CEO? That will change the future of the organisation. So they have to be confident that they're going to be able to trust you to be a good voice in those situations.

They want to know that you're going to work hard for it. There's lots of lazy NEDs out there and that you've got self-awareness. That you'll know when to speak and when told back. So in terms of how you put your value forwards, probably, unless you can communicate that you are board ready, all of the other value that you bring will not be recognised by the organisation because they need someone that can evidence that they're board ready. Lots of people think that means you've been a NED before. It doesn't. Clearly we need people who have not been NEDs before. But we do need people that are board ready as well.

In terms of your value proposition, it's really important that the values of the organisation, if it's a particularly values driven organisation, that you show that you chime with that. That you get the purpose and the mission of the organisation and that you are passionate about that and that's a really key to communicate, obviously through a cover letter or in a conversation with the recruiter.

I know you have lots of conversations with people, Ralph, where people don't recognise how much skill and experience they've got in certain areas until you sort of tease out of them, and I'd say you can't leave it all to the interview for them to tease it out of you. You want to make it easy for them. You want to, you know, put it right there and say, this is what I could bring you. Often I have found you learn that over time, putting yourself in different situations. So that might mean mentoring a startup. Actually putting yourself in different situations you Realise the value you'd bring, and I think I regularly underestimated the exposure and experience I gained at RBS in my twenties and the value that brings later on. I underestimated how useful it is to be able to analyse a balance sheet, P&L, cash flow, to be able to spot trends, to be able to ask the right questions and just quickly calculate all the ratios and think things through.

I didn't realise that was something that not everyone could do until I got out in the market and saw that gap. So I think, if you can, any opportunity to get out there and appreciate how your skills fit into the wider market, how are your skills fit into a board, any exposure you can get to realise that is helpful.

I'd say one thing that might help you along the way is having conversations with people that know you well, to help spot those traits in yourself. But definitely go outside of the sector that you've worked in. Cause generally your sector have a blind spot to the value that they will bring when they go outside the sector.

[00:33:52] Ralph Grayson: I think that's great advice. Let's just touch on a couple of innovative and new features of boards and governance.

So, Patrick Dunne talks about the five generations now and young people on boards and I'm so in awe of your chair who recruited you at 29. 8 years ago. I mean, wow. There weren't many examples of that. So, full credit to him or her. I think that's brilliant.

So any perspectives you've got from within Dynamic Boards on younger generation boards, the importance now of cyber, AI, social media. What are the new trends and how should people think more creatively about their fit on a board?

[00:34:30] Sarah Pierman: The book by Patrick and Rebecca looking at multi-generational boards is so key and their comment that there's going to be five generations that work together it is a huge opportunity for us to look at how do we get at least some more of those five generations around the board table as well.

And I know they talk about some examples of next generation boards, organisations like Gucci that have done some, really innovative things to look at how do you get different voices from different age groups involved in influencing strategy? That really excites me, I think, there's huge potential once we start working in a more multigenerational way. I'd also say the absolute opposite, which is something that terrifies me, is it not going that way. So if as an example, we suddenly saw, younger people take over boards that we actually lost multi-generational thinking and we just had all boards represented by all people in their thirties. That would concern me as much as having boards that are solely represented by people in their sixties does.

We really need to work out how we work multi-generationally, and that includes everyone. It's a very inclusive message. It should be a very exciting message for everyone and we need to work towards that mix because when you think about our workplace, we are going to have five generations in the workplace. We should have five generations in the workplace. We need to work out how we get five generations who will have totally different life journeys of digital adoption all on board in growing UK businesses. So, it is incredibly paramount and I think a really pertinent and timely book to bring up that conversation.

We in our NED community said, right, we're going to do a session on AI, can anyone put forward some AI speakers? We realised that within our community, we had quite a few AI experts already. The thing is the technology is fairly young, so an AI expert hasn't been working in AI all of their career, however old they are. So we've got to get some of these people that have experience in these areas, onto our boards as well, and we are seeing that happening, and I think that's a really exciting development. There's always been a bit of a challenge of, when you think of technology or cyber, do you need a cyber individual on a board or do you get a consultant to come in and do a session for you on cyber? There isn't a simple answer to these things, but what you do need is people around the board who have a basic level of understanding on some of these key topics. Otherwise, you get a consultant in and you get one of your team to come and speak to you, and no one on the board knows really what they're talking about enough to be able to challenge and ask questions. NEDs aren't necessarily there to be experts in all of the areas covered by the organisation, but they do need to be able to ask the questions and they do need a base level of understanding to be able to do that. We are going to end up with some, quite a lot of generalists on boards potentially, that do have enough knowledge of, for example, AI to be able to speak into and challenge those areas.

Of course when you start thinking about AI, and we were talking about this earlier, Ralph, you want people who are going to be able to challenge things like the commercial impact of those decisions, as well as purely the technological impact. So you do need people from all sorts of different backgrounds. But for me, this is definitely, it's a loaded, generational conversation because that'll definitely come at the same time.

[00:37:35] Ralph Grayson: Well, it's back to the fit, isn't it? So, the important thing is that any aspiring NED realises they're not there for their individual functional or sectoral expertise, they're there to be part of a team.

So, actually asking the dumb question, is as appropriate as having real domain expertise and whoever it is who's sagelike on board governance, they will say, don't bite your lip. If you are thinking, hang on, am I brave enough to ask this question? It probably means there's another four people around the table thinking exactly the same thing.

But in terms of where those skill gaps are, what are companies coming to you saying, we've got a gap here, this is the skillset we need to solve for.

Where's your heat map in terms of where you are supplying the solution?

[00:38:22] Sarah Pierman: Do you know for a little while we tried to track this and work out all the different skills that they were asking for. It took a huge amount of work and we developed such a long list that we thought this is absolutely pointless. Organisations ask for all different types of skills. There is a phenomenal mix out there.

I'd say we still have the regular cadence of finance skills being asked for, and that's because often there's an audit and risk committee. You need a chair, you need board members that have a basic understanding. As much as it's good to have the lay persons questions coming in, you also do need some people who have a good grasp of it. So I would say that's one of the core ones that will not go away. I don't think it should.

But aside from that, we are seeing a real mix. I think a lot more organisations are understanding things like customer success. Things that haven't really been thought about before. We've already touched on AI and tech. But we are seeing the ask for everything and anything, and I guess my message to people listening is if you are thinking about NED roles, there will be boards out there that are looking for skills in the area that you've worked in.

You know, traditionally no one thought of adding HR onto a board as a non-exec and now people are realising, goodness, so many decisions that boards are making relate to people. So many things that go wrong in organisations relate to people. So how do you get a board of people that have never worked in that area of the business to think through all those topics, and it's not that they can't, they do and sometimes they do it well. But actually bringing in some of that skill sets really helpful and I'd say that's gone up the agenda. Likewise things like marketing and other skills as well that previously, I'd say, they didn't have on boards. They're now recognising they do need.

[00:39:57] Ralph Grayson: And any changes over the last five years in terms of the membership of Dynamic Boards? What they're asking, what they think they're solving for, what they think they're failing for?

[00:40:07] Sarah Pierman: I'd say it's been fairly steady. Which is interesting. Right from the outset, we were very passionately, everyone is welcome. I think by being the founder and being young as a non-exec that sent a message that you can do this younger. So we've always had people in their thirties and forties, signing up and the odd person in their twenties as well.

I'd say we've always had the fifties, sixties, and some seventies as well. So we've still got a very good age mix. We've got a stubbornly 50:50 gender mix despite very rarely talking about gender. So we definitely are encouraging both men and women to consider roles and we should probably do another check to see in terms of skills and experience areas, are there any that have stormed ahead?

But, I'd say things like ethnic diversity, all of those areas I think we've managed to quite steadily maintain a really good mix across our database. We've done some real proactive work with things like CTOs, Chief Technology Officers. We've spoken to groups of them to make sure that they are hearing about the idea of becoming a NED, because I don't think it's a traditional part of their career paths generally and we do want to encourage people from backgrounds that we know are underrepresented, that have skills that definitely aren't making their way on boards, to even just think about the role of a NED. But whereas I think often people coming from the city, and with finance backgrounds, are more aware of that pathway.

But I'd say no, we've got a pretty good mix and it hasn't changed too much.

[00:41:28] Ralph Grayson: So I think the key takeaway for that, if you are an aspiring NED and you think you've got something to contribute, don't let anything put you off. Just give it a go and apply.

[00:41:37] Sarah Pierman: Yeah, and I'd also say if you look at an advert, it says, we are looking for and you think, I don't quite bring that, but this organisation needs what I can bring. Then I would say quite a lot of organisations do not spend enough time writing their brief, and so they, might well end up recruiting someone that does not meet their exact brief.

Why not you? If you think you'd bring value, articulate it. Argue your case andyou may well be successful. So I would say don't even let the advert put you off.

[00:42:08] Ralph Grayson: Well, I think just to add to that, wearing my recruiter hat, look at who is on the board and do your own homework about where you think the skill gap is and what you solve for. Because different boards, different chairs, different SIDs, different chairs of NOMs may or may not be good recruiters and they may or may not have a good process and don't just take the job spec as gospel in that respect. Look at it from your own critique cause as a board member, you are going to be there to do that critique. So if you can demonstrate as part of the recruitment process, you are demonstrating that you're going to add some value as a board member. Top tip!

[00:42:47] Sarah Pierman: Yeah, I think you're totally right, and on that, I'd say, we always talk about, you know, we want to create a market where people can dip their toe in the water. However, if you're applying for a role that is not dipping your toe in the water, you should be working incredibly hard at doing your diligence on that organisation.

So, like Ralph says, that means looking at who's on the board. It'll mean looking at things like Glassdoor, and what previous employees have said about that organisation. It'll mean doing an awful lot of research online, asking your network, seeing what you can find out about the organisation. So that you can tease out the value you'd bring and where you see the organisation is and what they need so that you can articulate that.

Because like you just said, Ralph, it makes it a lot easier for the board if they can see those skills that they will receive when you are a non-exec, now, during this application process.

[00:43:29] Ralph Grayson: So I think Sarah's demonstrated very clearly the value added for a aspiring NED that Dynamic Boards can bring. So what should a listener take from this? How do they follow up with Dynamic Boards if they're interested to learn more?

[00:43:45] Sarah Pierman: Well, I'd say, join a board! I would definitely encourage you. So we give you the opportunity to dip your toe in the water and have a look at lots and lots of different adverts. I'd say come along to one of our Future NEDs sessions, that was advertised in our newsletter, and that would be an opportunity to learn more about the role of a NED and hear things like what the different markets pay, what their time commitments are, get a real sense of that.

If you are already a NED, chair or trustee, you're very welcome to join our NED community, Become a thoughtful and effective NED. I'd say, like we just said, don't be put off. I think when you start looking through adverts, try and think about the value that you would bring. But don't be put off by the wording that's in there. I think there's a couple of things you can do if you're early on in your career, and one of them is get board exposure. So you don't need to be a NED to become a NED. That clearly doesn't work. Boards have to have first time NEDs, but you do need to be board ready.

And one way that you can articulate that in your CV is by talking about the board experience or exposure that you've had. That might mean you've been on a steering group for something in your current workplace. You've been on an advisory board. You've been a school governor. Anything helps in that kind of area and a lot of it is how you can articulate it back through the process and tease out what you actually did when you're involved in that. So you have been involved in strategic top level decision making, that is the key thing you want to put out there.

You can learn from other NEDs. So we've got a heck of a lot of NED videos on our YouTube channel and there's lots of NED podcasts out there like this one. There's lots you can learn from people who are already non-execs and if you have any in your network, you can reach out to them for a coffee as well.

[00:45:19] Ralph Grayson: So LinkedIn, YouTube, DynamicBoards.co.uk. There we have it. Sarah, thank you so much for your time.

[00:45:26] Sarah Pierman: Thank you, Ralph. Thanks for having me. Great to be with you.

[00:45:29] Ralph Grayson: I hope that you've enjoyed listening to this podcast and have found it helpful when thinking about how to approach your own path to the boardroom. If you would like to push this a little bit further, Sainty Hird runs a bespoke one to one programme designed specifically to this end. For more information, please visit our website, saintyhird.com, follow us on LinkedIn, and subscribe to the Boardroom Path to receive new episodes. Thank you for listening.